From the Mouth of Babes: Religious Revelation - Instablogs
From the Mouth of Babes: Religious Revelation
Oscar , Oaxaca: Oct 18 2008
Made Popular Oct 18 2008
Mexico :

From the Mouth of Babes: Religious Revelation

A few weeks ago, my ten year old daughter, Isa, came home from school rattled to the core. She needed to speak to her Mother, it was urgent, a matter of life or death. Sitting down with her Mother, she exploded in confusion, worry, and angst. “Mom you’re not going to heaven because you don’t believe in God. Jewish people don’t believe in God and if you don’t believe, you’ll never make it to heaven.”

Needless to say, my wife was in shock. She was baptized and raised a good Catholic, but giving birth to our oldest son at fifteen, the church felt she was no longer worthy of their God. She still believes in God, she just doesn’t believe in the Church, more specifically she doesn’t believe in worshipping false idols who claim God like status while running the Church.

This is a subject that pains my wife, she doesn’t share it, but I know just to skirt the subject conjures up memories causing her to still feel like that scared pregnant little girl, tears of shame burning her cheeks, as she was cast from her safehaven and branded a sinner, a heathen.

Nonetheless, she inhaled deeply and placed her arms around Isa. She explained that she does believe in God, she just doesn’t go to Church to prove it like some people. Isa, who goes to a lax Catholic school and recently celebrated her confirmation, was assured, end of story; her mother would be saved. If only my wife could have had “reforgotten” so quickly.

From the Mouth of Babes: Religious Revelation

Four days ago, Isa got herself into trouble for not doing homework, as a consequence, she was banned from the computer. Both my wife and I sat her down and explained computers and chatting are fun, but homework is a priority, no excuses. My poor child, she was devestated and acted as if we handed banned her from existing or taken her right to breathe. Isa, however, doesn’t give up easy. She is determined and personal pain only accents her urges to exstinguish injustice.

Yesterday she calls me from her room. “Dad, Dadddyyyyy” to which I replied, “Just a moment Isa, I’m working”. Again Isa bellowed “Papi, I neeeeeeeeed to talk to you.” I was just about ready to answer her, when she entered my office, hands on her hips, ready to slay injustice like a midevil dragon. Our conversation went as follows:

Isa: Dad, you said chatting is wrong, you have to finish work first.

Me: Isa, I AM working.

Isa: No you’re not, I see you chaattting.

Me: Isa, I’m working on the blog, reading comments, writing comments, and trying to learn, figure something out.

Isa: I told you, you were chatting. Maybe I’m trying to figure stuff out, too, when I’m chatting.

Me: Isa, you’re not going to win, just stop. Trying to figure out how to get to the ice cream parlor on Club Penguin is not the same as what I’m trying to understand.

Isa: So what’s so important, what don’t you understand Daddy?

Me: Religion.

With that I explained to my daughter what I was so desperately trying to understand here on IB. I took out our globe and showed her India. I explained what little I knew and why I don’t understand the hate and intolerance divide sometimes created by religions.

Without even blinking an eye, my Isa was snuggled on my lap with her own story to tell me.

“My Mom’s Jewish, Mariana and I are Catholic, but Mariana doesn’t believe it the Devil and I think Mass is stupid; all we do is stand, pray, kneel, sit, pray, stand, kneel, pray. Patty says her Aunt and Uncle are not Catholic, but Morons. Katia’s Dad worships the devil, but her Mom is Catholic, and Julisa never told us, but we heard she and her family don’t really love God, but some wierd guy named Jehova; she just comes to our school, because it’s a good school and cheaper than the other ones.”

From the Mouth of Babes: Religious Revelation

It was definitely my turn to be shocked, in fact I was speechless.
I had no idea my ten year old and her friends focused so much on religion. After I recovered, I had some questions for Isa. First off, I thought we got over her Mother being Jewish, to which Isa responded in kind: “It’s okay Dad, Mom can still go to heaven ‘cuz she believes in God, I mean just because she was born Jewish doesn’t mean she has to stay Jewish.” Now I understood the Jewish issue and quickly explained. Obviously Isa had overheard, as it is no secret, her Mother was born in the “Jewish Memorial Hospital”, being born in a Jewish hospital, to a ten year old, I found, automatically renders you Jewish.

Next what do Morons have to do with religion? Isa of course had a reply for this as well “You know Dad, Morons, the ones that go to the fancy Church with the gold eagle on top in the city.” Isa was close, unfortunatly she left the “m” out of the word. She was trying to say Mormon. I only had a few more questions. Why does she think Katia’s Dad worships the devil and who is talking about Julisa and her family? Isa’s replies were simple and factual in her mind. Katia’s Dad worships the devil because he wears the “devil’s star” on a necklace. Julisa doesn’t have to go to Mass, but also doesn’t come to parties or other festivals, older kids who know the girl’s older siblings made the comment about them being Jehova witness’ after being told by the brother.

Wow, these girls are observant. I explained to Isa Katia’s Dad was not a devil worshiper, as the golden star around his neck was not Satanic, but the star of David. I also explained that while she had quite a mix of religions amongst her friends, the issue in India wasn’t as easy, as it involved the entire country.
I thought I was giving her what little insight I had until Isa shared her truth with me and said:

“I know Daddy, that’s why it’s so silly of them. I mean they have the whole India country and they fight, but we are all in the same little classroom and we’re best friends.”

I couldn’t have given a better example had a spent years trying. I didn’t need to give an example, my girl lives tolerance, peace, and love.

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1 Stars
Leena
Kolkata, India
Your lovable daughter has a wonderful message out there for us, Oscar. Many of us out here, the ones who are truly religious, think exactly the way she does. A true believer in God and a true follower of religion always lives tolerance, peace and love, be it any country of this world. Those people who do not understand the teachings of their own religion or misinterpret them are the ones who are fighting, and unfortunately, they are the majority and in high power too. That is why there is such a lot of disturbance and chaos out here. This is a problem of the human mindset and personal values, rather than of any particular country or religion and this is happening throughout the world, not only in India
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
You are true, this is EVERYWHERE. Isa and I got on the subject of India, because I have been trying to figure out why there is so much ”bad blood” between Muslims and Indians(?)( I’m not sure if that is a correct term, but that’s what I keep seeing.I hope it’s not offensive..)much is being written on both behalfs here on IB.. I don’t know anything about either and have been trying to ask questions on many posts to learn a little of each..not to form an opinion, just to not be in complete darkness..To be honest, I still don’t understand.

If only we could keep our values we had as children.Look at my daughter and her friends. Children know no color, religion, economic class...They know honestly, loyalty, and tolerance..This is how they choose who is a friend, who is good for them...How do adults lose that...more importantly WHY do we lose it???
1 Stars
Leena
Kolkata, India
You are so correct,Oscar. Why do adults loose it? Even I have been thinking about this question…not only from the point of view of religion, but from all the other bad things that keep happening in the adult world and have not come up with a satisfactory solution to this question. But I know this much….children are pure and innocent, their minds are untouched by biases and all the other selfish motives that infest the adult brains. I think the root cause of all this is that children are very logical and rational in their thinking whereas adults are illogical and irrational in their thinking, which results in their making unfair demands from the world, ultimately causing all this chaos that we are seeing around us.
(Global Perspectives)
3 Stars
India is a big country. It is true that we keep on fighting with each other. All fights are not over religion or salvation or this path or that path. People and Kingdoms fight wars over supremacy, subjugation, power, hatred, jealousy, women, land, property, etc. It is unevitable.

Hinduism says that people on earth are born in a cycle of birth and death of 84,00,00,000 lives starting from insects to human beings.

The journey on this earth is a passing phase. On completion of this journey, Hinduism says, we are produced before Chitragupt (the record keeper) who sends us to Dharmraj (The judge of our duties) and based on our Karma (deeds), he sends us to hell and heaven or both for a certain period of time. We may reduce our stay in hell by increasing our good deeds, etc. Our meeting with God is called salvation.

Hinduism believes that human life has four tasks (or goals) :- Dharma, Artha, Kama, Moksha meaning duty, earning, sex (or desire) and salvation.

Doing each of these four duties, we are bound to come in conflict with others and therefore conflict is an integral part of human life.

Can there be an uniform policy for all? Hinduism rules it out. It says that if a Brahmin is not greedy, he will not learn, will not become knowledgeable and will not be able to spread knowledge. Therefore, greed in a Brahmin is justified. With knowledge, he will have fear. He will be afraid of being challenged and would therefore not like arguments. That gives birth to another complication amongst wise people. They avoid debate.

Hinduism says that a King is a good king only if he has aspirations to expand his kingdom and subjugate people. Imagine the havoc, it creates. But if he is not so, like many Indian kings, his soldiers will be relax, enemy would attack and his territory would shrink. So, Hinduism justifies it as a virtue of kings. Imagine its impact on society !

There are many other such gems. But I stop here, otherwise I am afraid, I would get distracted.
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
I didn’t want to insinuate that all of India’s woes were regarding religion. I just couldn’t help but notice so much ”bickering” back and forth over religion here on IB...90% are by and for people from India.

could you please explain this term: ”Brahmin”. Is it a King, a follower of Hinduism, a God, a state at which one would want to become?

”With knowledge, he will have fear”

I know they say ignorance is Bliss, but wouldn’t one, to the countrary, feel assured by their knowledge, or does it only open doors of overwhelming truth and reality:?

So for this lesson, would it be safe to say: Hinduism acknowledges conflict, but seeks to fullfill more good deeds than bad.

But still justifies killings and forceful subjugation as means to a Kings good deed and will in protecting and keeping his territory intact?

You are truley amazing Mr. Ramesh. How I would enjoy sitting with you for weeks, listening (and attempting) to learn the smallest fraction of your wisdom.

Thank you once again for taking the time to explain to someone like me who is desperatley trying to replace ignorance with a bit of knowledge.

Please keep your lessons coming.
1 Stars
Hindu sages knew that a classless society is not possible. They gave social laws and divided human beings in four broad categories or class or color. They are :-
Brahmins (The wise one who adopted the profession of priests, judges, teachers, scholars, etc.); Kshatriyas (The warriors who adopted the profession of militarymen became rulers, kings, land lords, etc), the Vaishyas (Businessmen) and Shudras (Labourer).

These classes had many professions which was followed in the family through generations. Over a period of time, it got stuck up with the family as caste.

Upward mobility from one caste to another or one class to another was possible. However, in last 4000 years or so, the upper castes started practicing untouchability with lower castes; for example, not exactly but something like Whitemen and Negro problem.
(Global Perspectives)
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
Casta..We had the Spanish colonial caste for many many years, even after the revolution. Now it is not spoken of, but still very much in play. 1% of the wealthy own all land and business. The criollos are your typical business men, business owners, and power executives: mestizos and lowr level ”criollos” have blended although their is still more acceptance of the white mestizo, and at the end there is still the Indian.


So it is still very much divided,but there is small opportunity to move up in caste, but one should never mingle with a lower class?

Is there a punishment or what happens when you break this untouchability? Is this caste level a birthright? If my father was a businessman would I automatically be granted entrance into a level of Vaishyas to choose a profession from the catagory?..How do they stop one from learning? Are the labouring caste not allowed to continue education to obtain the knowledge of vaishyas or would they simply not be allowed to practice a profession.

What if a laborer child grew and wanted to enter the military? Could he ever choose to continue as a profession and become a Kshatriya?

It seems sad to be bound by such ties.
1 Stars
In modern India, you can move from one profession to another. Earlier too, it was possible. Basically the respect is of the skill, not of the person per-se.
(Global Perspectives)
1 Stars
Intermingling is no problem.
(Global Perspectives)
1 Stars
Untouchability is not practiced now a days. Education has brought radical changes. It is possible for any one to adopt any profession and reach any where. Government provides reservation in education, jobs, promotions for the deprived class. The scenario is changing.
(Global Perspectives)
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
I thank you for these lessons, I really do.

I see why ”western” minds have a hard time grasping it all, with the little bit you share with me each comment, I feel as if I revert back to kindergarten- but I am detrmined to learn more..of everything.
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
It appears the modernazation of education and ones openess to accept new teachings would be the key to the world.
1 Stars
Leena
Kolkata, India
You are so correct. Why do adults loose it? Even I have been thinking about this question…not only from the point of view of religion, but from all the other bad things that keep happening in the adult world and have not come up with a satisfactory solution to this question. But I know this much….children are pure and innocent, their minds are untouched by biases and all the other selfish motives that infest the adult brains. I think the root cause of all this is that children are very logical and rational in their thinking whereas adults are illogical and irrational in their thinking, which results in their making unfair demands from the world, ultimately causing all this chaos that we are seeing around us.
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
The beauty of a child is they never look for POWER, quite the contrary, they look to share..

Adults are always looking to be ”one up” on the next..A constant struggle to achieve..Pulling one down while standing upon yet another to launch ourselves higher..Ultimatly what do we achieve? We are human, we must live within societies. Yet we find no solace, nothing but contempt among all others..

Sadly, it seems we will never be happy.
1 Stars
Leena
Kolkata, India
Our insane hunger for power and that too, most often,by pulling down the others, for things that we might not justly deserve....that was what I meant by illogical and irrational thinking.

If logically, a human strives to attain what rightfully belongs to him, every human being will follow parallel paths towards attaining his goals.Its only when we want to tresspass each other’s paths that conflict begins
(Global Perspectives)
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
Exactly..We are trespassers, possessionist.. Alsways trying to take what is not ours...ideas, faith, beliefs..Not because we want them, but because WE DON’T WANT THEM, and because we don’t want another to have what we don’t have.
3 Stars
In my previous comment, I touched upon Greed. We all know greed as a vice. Hiduism says as to how greed of knowledge is a virtue in Brahmin (the priest/teacher/judge/wise community) and greed of expanision is a virtue in a King. I also touched about its counter-effects.

Now lets say something about modesty. We all know that modesty is a jewel of a female, specially in East. Hinduism says that Modesty is a virtue of a home maker, a married female, a wife but does not recommend it for prostitutes, courtesans, dancers, artists, etc. it says that a prostitute has to be immodest and shameless.

Therefore, what is a virtue in one person may not be a virtue for the other.
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
Quick question. Are their many Brahmins, like priest in a catholic society? Or are Hindu’s more selective towards this entitlement? Is there and will there be only one king per territory? How are the kings and the territories decided? What about modern day India? How is the ”King” and Brahmin ratio distributed among such a vast nation such as India?

Now modesty.”dancers, artists, etc” are all placed together under the ”prostitute” title.

Next: this would leave vast opportunity to shift among the virtues: No one is born a prostitute, thus should be modest..Women will not prostitute forever, thus they have the opportunity to revert back to a modest virtue.

Now for an odd queston: It is not uncommon in Mexico for prostiutes, table dancers, etc to be married. They are homemakers by day, and dancers, prostiutes, etc by night..Where does their virtue lye? With their husband and children or within their occupation?
1 Stars
Priests are Brahmins. Any Brahmin could be a priest. Since we have 33,00,000 gods and goddesses; there is no need of going to temples as they can be worshipped anywhere.
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
Wow! I guess there are alot of Brahmins to cover the needs of so many Gods.
1 Stars
Kingdom is a pyramidical structure. There would be landless controlled by landlords controlled by local chieftans controlled by kings who will subjugate to Emperor.

In modern India, we have landless. Landlords, businessmen pay taxes to the local authorities. It could be village, cities firming part of a sub division which is part of a district which is part of a state of a union of India. Kings have been replaced by locally elected leaders who govern us.
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
So it is now a ”modern” society, but ruled by ”old” rules...not to say it ignorantly, but how do the rules apply, caste wise, and so forth in Modern society or are the elected leaders ALWAYS Hindu as well?
1 Stars
We have been ruled for 350 years by the Muslims and 250 years by British. In Independent India we had 3 Muslim Presidents, many chief justices, chief ministers of state and people from other caste and creed.

The fundamentals of the game does not change for a Hindu or a Christian or a Muslim. These rules are universally applicable.
(Global Perspectives)
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
True. The fundamentals never really change. Even with the seperation of Church and State, you can’t seperate the Church from the Humans that make up the State. Thus each new President, RULER, etc, may bring about change within.
1 Stars
Modesty is not a virtue for all these professionals.
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
So once you lose your virtue for any reason, there is no going back? Leopards can’t change their spots?
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
Does this only apply to women?
1 Stars
You know the answer. Hinduism is an universal religion.
(Global Perspectives)
1 Stars
Virtue is with the profession at profession time because of the professional tag. A housewife should not be shameless whereas if a female dancer is not shameless, she won’t earn.
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
And how are the non- virtued women looked upon?

Now I’m seeing the conflict.
1 Stars
As I said earlier, Hindu sages divided mankind into four classes. The last ones, the labourers are and will be in majority anywhere in the world, above them will be businessmen and above them will be landlords and ruling class, above them will be teachers, priests, judges, advisors, etc. Their numbers would reduce from down to upwards. The present population of India is approximately 67% lower class and only 3% upper caste Brahmins.
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
In Mexico the wealthy 1% landowners, business magnates, etc are above the priest, teachers, and judges, advisors..They own them, essentially. Well, I guess their ownership is no longer exclusive..they have to share them with the narcos, or maybe the narcos are the new rulers.
1 Stars
The land would be held by Kshatriyas because they are the kings, powerful men and military men having powers of the state. Their ministers, counsellors, advisors would be Brahmins.

Both would be professionally greedy.
(Global Perspectives)
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
It’s amazing to have a title for each of these, their greed is undeniable.
1 Stars
Shiv
india, India
sir, any guess when women will be inducted in active combat or we will have a female army chief the glass ceiling does exists
1 Stars
Never.
(Global Perspectives)
2 Stars
Oscar, these days my son too comes to me with all kinds of religious queries and he too goes to catholic school...I don’t know if there is any connection...i.e if school is responsible for religious queries...

Like Isa he has wonderful class-mates, friends. Recently he carried some sweets to celebrate Id with his class-mates...he cannot understand why no Prinipal punishes cruel people who harm others and play with arm toys...he often tells me children are much better than grown-ups and adults...

We have much to learn from this innocent world of children!
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
Maybe because their is such seperation between State and Church and even in my family Church and Individual..Maybe that is why our children, who are in Catholic schools (probably children in other types of Religious schools as well) are more keen to observing.

For example, although my wife and I do not attend Mass and feel the Church is highly independant from God, we BOTH choose to put our children in parrochial schools. Granted it is not the same type of Catholic school as the past, but nontheless we like the fact that: Values, Faith, and Morals have importance.

In my family, we do talk about God and neither my wife nor I will ever reflect our internal confusion or anger at the Church to our children. They, as us, will be provided with morals, values, and Faith..Our family does talk and reflect much together on morals and values in the Human sciety, Hopefully as my wife and I are are both very ”tolerant” it will give a strong basis for human tolerance to our children..As the grow older, they may form their own opinions on the Church and or religion..and will be supported as long as they have reason..as belief in God or a higher power is not a fad or passing thought.

Isa amazes me, she seems much more perceptive to difference, change, and injustice than my sons were..I don’t think my boys are any LESS than her, but I think ”our Mexican” world has changed so radically in the past few years, causing the differences among us to be more obvious...yet she still finds the common factor of good in all.

We have much to learn...It appears the more intellectually intellegant we become in life, the more humanly ignorant we become..

I fonly we could learn the balance of the two loke children.
2 Stars
Michael C
Lyon, France
Hi Oscar! (Oh, and how did I miss this article?!! Strange..)

Yeah, kids are like sponges; they soak up everything and everything and it’s like they have this massive hard drive which isn’t yet clutterd up with old files.

So they ask questions. Because their minds are quick, agile and highly active.

They are also very instinctive and know the ”right” thing do do, (even though things evolve with time) if we just have enough courage to give them the freedom to do so. Your family has obviously understood this!

I had a girlfriend once who had a five-year-old boy. We were visiting a town called Vienne, here in France and she took him into the cathedral to visit it. I waited outside, for reasons you know...

She told me later that he was very uneasy the second he got in there, and, when he touched the altar he recoiled and said ”Mama, it’s cold. It’s cold in here. I don’t like it. I want to go....”.

So they left.

Who knows what or whether he will believe. But that experience will stay with him for life, I’m sure, and it’s the same for your daughter......these are important moments for children. They need to talk with others and then decide for themselves...and we should not manipulate them.

Super post my friend!
2 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
You are so right..!

I think as parents, we are to be guides to our children.. My wife and I will protect, fight or kill for all 3 of our children...but we will not force our views our any other popular view on our children...

We want to show them what are definite facts: give them choices, they must continue thinking and feeling for themselves, as Isa does not..She is not cluttered..The lines and rules are very clear..Good is good, bad is bad. Simple and gunuine. I love you because of you, not because of what I can make you or get from you.

We need to avoid cluttering our children while showing undivided support: morally and emotionally. By guiding and supporting them we can allow them to coninue being open and tolerant to humanity, while knowing the difference between ”true good” and ”true bad” in it’s simplest most precise forms.
3 Stars
Vijay
Kota, India
Oscar,a famous Hindi songs lines are
”Na Hindu Banega Na Musalman Banega”
”Insaan Ki Aulad Hai Insaan Banega”.
You’ll not become a Hindu nor a Muslim.
You are the son of a man,and you’ll become ”Human”.
1 Stars
Oscar
Oaxaca, Mexico
Vijay, I thank you for that from the bottom of my heart..
”You are the son of a man,and you’ll become ”Human”.”

That should be remembered by every human on this earth..We are HUMAN, through no amount of faith or following will we ever become more..

I think we should remember this, as we are all HUMAN and all brothers, regardless of race, creed, or religion.

Thanks again Vijay...It’s great to have you back.
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